Overrated/underrated characters

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Re: Overrated/underrated characters

Post by ban » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:41 pm

But Killer7 was the game where people said Suda was at his absolute worst. Hell, it's the reason Shinji Mikami had Suda avoid touching the gameplay part of Shadows of the Damned out of fear he won't fuck up like he did with Killer7(Guess who fucked with you two instead, boys.). Back when Capcom offered Suda a job, they also offered him part of the then-DMC3 engine and since Hiroyuki Kobayashi liked Mikami, he gave them the ok to use the assets for Dante's Gunslinger style and guns as a start or to try and have a go at the gameplay system of PN03, in order for them to expand on it. Not even two months in and Suda felt that the gameplay tarnished his grand storytelling vision, so he changed game engines and just remade everything from scratch, while trying to find a fitting gameplay style for his story.

Keep in mind, his story was unchanged between the two versions, only the gameplay. Needless to say, he got off his high horse and faced reality. It's also why he doesn't mess with people's game design docs ever since and just works closely with the people who make them, ever since his learning experience with Samurai Champloo : Sidetracked. He's good at infusing his ideas but he needs someone to tell him what works and what doesn't in game design.
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Re: Overrated/underrated characters

Post by VoiceOfReasonPast » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:47 pm

At his absolute worst? Wasn't Killer7 the one that put him on the map in the first place?
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Re: Overrated/underrated characters

Post by ban » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:53 pm

In game design. But people like Killer7 for the story and weird as fuck tone and visuals. That's what put him on the map. Heck, I liked it until Killer is Dead appeared.
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Re: Overrated/underrated characters

Post by rabidtictac » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:54 pm

I was going to mention killer is dead. That seems like his most polished game, and possibly his best.

I dunno. I don't really like Suda.
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Re: Overrated/underrated characters

Post by ban » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:55 pm

I'd say it's a toss-up between KiD and Shadows of the Damned regarding polish and which is best. KiD's biggest offence is the PC version not running at 60s and not being optimised for that.

Not a favourite but he does have his moments at times and that's what I like. If only he took advantage of his chances like Yoko Taro did. :roll: I could have Lilly Bergamo by now. :(
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Re: Overrated/underrated characters

Post by Kugelfisch » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:06 am

Speaking of, Yoko Taro is a hack with a shitty shtick. You want to keep making vidya? Make better ones. And try to come up with story "twists" that aren't "everything is fucked, how depressing".

For the underrated side and to see who does it right, SWERY. Deadly Premonition and D4 are just the right amount of weird but manage to remain interesting. But the advice to make better games gameplay wise still applies. But I'm much more forgiving because they aren't, at the very least, the blandest crap shit like Yoko Taro's shit is.

And while we're on the subject, I'm not a big fan of Suda51. Killer 7's story is in the "just right amount of weird" camp. No more Heroes is just crap. Everything about it. Story, gameplay, characters all of it. The second game is even worse in the story department.

Shinji Mikami is doing okay. I'm a bit miffed about The Evil Within taking a step back from a more interesting story in it's second game but it's better in gameplay. If he gets the chance to make a third one he might just nail it and we could get another RE4.
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Re: Overrated/underrated characters

Post by rabidtictac » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:13 am

Kugelfisch wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:06 am
Speaking of, Yoko Taro is a hack with a shitty shtick. You want to keep making vidya? Make better ones. And try to come up with story "twists" that aren't "everything is fucked, how depressing".

For the underrated side and to see who does it right, SWERY. Deadly Premonition and D4 are just the right amount of weird but manage to remain interesting. But the advice to make better games gameplay wise still applies. But I'm much more forgiving because they aren't, at the very least, the blandest crap shit like Yoko Taro's shit is.

And while we're on the subject, I'm not a big fan of Suda51. Killer 7's story is in the "just right amount of weird" camp. No more Heroes is just crap. Everything about it. Story, gameplay, characters all of it. The second game is even worse in the story department.

Shinji Mikami is doing okay. I'm a bit miffed about The Evil Within taking a step back from a more interesting story in it's second game but it's better in gameplay. If he gets the chance to make a third one he might just nail it and we could get another RE4.
I almost mentioned swery. I think he's the guy who made Nier, right? Pretty good game. You can make fun and weird games with interesting stories. Nier has problems, but it's a unique game. There's nothing like it and the story was great imo.

The problem with all of these artiste video game creators is that their games have shit gameplay. It's not even debatable. Shadows of the Damned is a shit RE4. Lollipop Chainsaw is a shit beat em up. Killer7 is an ok rail shooter I guess. People like NMH but it always felt way too shallow for me. Nier's gameplay is functional, but that's the nicest I can say about it. Drakengard is a shit Musou.

It's hard for me to think of an auteur game with better gameplay than whatever the lead AAA titles are in the genre it's trying to break into. They HAVE to sell these games on novelty/being weird, since they'd be the blandest 5/10 games if saddled with a generic Ubishit story.
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Re: Overrated/underrated characters

Post by Poonoo » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:08 am

ban wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:53 pm
In game design.
I disagree solely because of how different it is to combine a rail shooter with a point and click adventure. The shooting parts feel like older horror games where the tension comes from the enemies being hard to shoot and not being able to move, but in Killer7 some skill is involved to shoot them in the right spot for a one shot kill and blood for upgrades. And the enemies are varied as fuck and require different strategy to kill, something that can't be said about No More Heroes other than the bosses.

It's not perfect, fuck it's a Suda51 game so even his good ones have obvious fucking problems, with the main issue being that sometimes the enemies appear out of no where at times so there are cheap hits and deaths.

The reason I think Suda went to shit is that is seems like most of his games are the same hack and slash shit lately. No More Heroes, Killer is Dead and Lollipop Chainsaw had similar hack and slash gameplay, when you compare it to Killer7 which is so unique in it's gameplay the other stuff seems so uninspired and unoriginal by comparison. That and he embraced the oh-so-wacky shit way too much until Killer Is Dead which at least looks like he realised it was getting lame.
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Re: Overrated/underrated characters

Post by Rapeculture » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:25 pm

Kugelfisch wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:06 am
Shinji Mikami is doing okay. I'm a bit miffed about The Evil Within taking a step back from a more interesting story in it's second game but it's better in gameplay. If he gets the chance to make a third one he might just nail it and we could get another RE4.
Yeah TEW2 was alright. I haven't played the first game again since i beat it, but I jumped back into TEW2 on Nightmare difficulty a couple days after completing it. And yeah, story was kind of standard/averagr, but I enjoyed the gameplay more than the first one also. Sebastian's new voice actor sounds like he needs to take a shit badly.
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Re: Overrated/underrated characters

Post by rabidtictac » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:37 am

Poonoo wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:08 am
ban wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:53 pm
In game design.
I disagree solely because of how different it is to combine a rail shooter with a point and click adventure. The shooting parts feel like older horror games where the tension comes from the enemies being hard to shoot and not being able to move, but in Killer7 some skill is involved to shoot them in the right spot for a one shot kill and blood for upgrades. And the enemies are varied as fuck and require different strategy to kill, something that can't be said about No More Heroes other than the bosses.

It's not perfect, fuck it's a Suda51 game so even his good ones have obvious fucking problems, with the main issue being that sometimes the enemies appear out of no where at times so there are cheap hits and deaths.

The reason I think Suda went to shit is that is seems like most of his games are the same hack and slash shit lately. No More Heroes, Killer is Dead and Lollipop Chainsaw had similar hack and slash gameplay, when you compare it to Killer7 which is so unique in it's gameplay the other stuff seems so uninspired and unoriginal by comparison. That and he embraced the oh-so-wacky shit way too much until Killer Is Dead which at least looks like he realised it was getting lame.
And of those games you mentioned, I would argue all the hack and slashers have shit gameplay EXCEPT Killer Is Dead, which was simplistic but enjoyable.

Suda really needs someone else to make the gameplay so he can focus on story. Or something. Because it seems all this guy can do is make a shittier-playing version of a game you can already go fucking buy. Nobody is going to play Killer is Dead's gameplay over a zelda game, devil may cry 3, bayonetta, a souls game, fucking megaman, etc. But he stole elements from zelda and dmc and who knows what the fuck else and created a package with it that plays FINE I GUESS, but not better than non-Suda titles.
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